tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post3099410980274386546..comments2023-09-07T06:36:59.520-04:00Comments on The Virtual Philosophy Club: Law, Jurisprudence, and Revolution in IslamIra Glicksteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10800080810596424897noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-91241337597811484562015-05-30T12:42:21.572-04:002015-05-30T12:42:21.572-04:00Just a few quick comments as we are out of the cou...Just a few quick comments as we are out of the country. Ira is correct that the candidates must be vetted by the Supreme Leader, and this detracts from effective demcracy there. However, in terms of interpreting Islam, that is quite a diversity of views among the Shiite jurists, incl in Iran. Joel makes some good points. I would point out, though, that there are quite a few who have stated publically and categorically that Islam is inherently a violent (and/or evil) religion. Yesterday's problems at the Islamic mosque in Phoenix, with (reportedly) about 500 demonstrators with guns, placards, etc. were (again, according to the AP) instigated by an Iraqi war veteran who asserted to the media that "Islam is an evil religion"). The Rev Billy Graham's son (i don't recall his first name) insists that it is (I have attended a debate with him as a panelists when he asserted that). I do not think this is a prevalent view, but my concern is that it is growing and that will make it much more difficult for well-intentioned and reasonable people to have productive discussions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-36539628431083661252015-05-22T21:50:44.799-04:002015-05-22T21:50:44.799-04:00THANKS again, Mark, for your Comment above, and fo...THANKS again, Mark, for your Comment above, and for your original Presentation and Topic. Thanks also to Joel and Jay for penetrating Comments.<br /><br />I hope others may join this collegial cross-discussion and that Mark, Jay, and Joel may continue to participate.<br /><br />I agree with Joel's main point, that Islam, compared to Christianity and Judaism, is young and immature, and that Judaism and Christianity passed through those early intolerant stages.<br /><br />I don't think we have hundreds of years to wait for Islam to mature. So, what do we do in the meantime?<br /><br />I also agree with Jay's point that the great majority of Muslims are good people, but they are fearful of speaking out against their less moderate co-coreligionists. <br /><br />I agree with Mark that there is considerable variety of interpretations among the religious leaders of Shiite and Sunni Islam, and not all are "Puritans". That is a bit of good news. <br /><br />In your talk, you correctly stated that there are competitive elections in Iran, however, I do not think you mentioned that ALL candidates must be vetted and approved by the Ayatollahs! <br /><br />Ira Glickstein<br /><br />PS: Vi and I are currently in Chatham, Cape Cod, MA, starting a week with friends from the NY bicycle club I used to ride with. (Nine of us in a cottage sharing two bathrooms and one kitchen :^) <br /><br />We spent the past two nights in Quincy, MA, at a Brookdale Independent/Assisted facility we get to stay at for free because we live at Brookdale's Freedom Pointe in The Villages. Prior to that we were in Andover, MA, on the campus of Phillips Academy, with our grands and their parents.<br /><br />Therefore I am pleased to see you guys, Mark, Jay, and Joel, continuing to keep this Blog active.Ira Glicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10800080810596424897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-60736707702588038422015-05-22T10:46:07.840-04:002015-05-22T10:46:07.840-04:00
I also enjoyed the presentation by Mark. The are...<br />I also enjoyed the presentation by Mark. The area that I believe is causing so much distrust of Muslims in this country is the lack of condemnation by the Muslim community for 9-11 and all the senseless killing in France, Canada and elsewhere. At the presentation someone asked about this and the response was that there was an article in the Wall Street Journal three weeks ago and some condemnation in Tehran on 9-11, (which I and most people in this country are unaware).<br /><br />I was only 30 miles from Manhattan on that fateful day. My recollection of that day are the many Muslims who were on the New Jersey side of the river cheering as the towers came down.<br /><br />Another person in the audience said that the Muslim communities do not come forward and condemn what is going on in fear of retaliation. Is this fear from Muslims or non-Muslims? I believe that the American people would have more respect for those that came forward and if enough Muslims did this, there would be less distrust of Muslims in this country.<br /><br /><br />Jay Kaplanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06450179619774183950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-41118613129002916342015-05-19T22:50:35.495-04:002015-05-19T22:50:35.495-04:00Hi Mark, It seems to me that you have set up a str...Hi Mark, It seems to me that you have set up a straw man and then proceeded to demolish it. I don't know who thinks that Islam is INHERENTLY bad. I'm sure such radicals exist, but I don't know them. A more moderate view that the Koran has some verses (like the "Sword Verses") that can be easily interpreted as fomenting violence and hatred for non-believers. Even in verses tolerating "people of the book" a special Koranic tax is called for. Hundreds of years of war attest to the fact that Christianity required long upheaval to arrive at a reasonably tolerant acceptance of free speech. Judaism required a thousand years of rabbinical reform to arrive at its present tolerant state. As Salman Rashdie has pointed out, the belief that the Koran was dictated by Allah stands in the way of major reform. The question is whether or not the rest of the world has the time and the luxury to wait for a the evolution of Islam to a less aggressive form. We could ask the persecuted members of the Ba'ahai "apostasy" what they think about the idea that Islam can change significantly in a mere few hundred years. Joel Foxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-5364203971933962962015-05-19T10:18:29.149-04:002015-05-19T10:18:29.149-04:00Thanks Ira, for your thoughtful comment. In respo...Thanks Ira, for your thoughtful comment. In response, I certainly and completely agree with your concerns about anyone who believes they have special access to the meaning of words of a deity and that their interpretations are absolutely the only right ones. And there are (to use the word used by El Fadl and in my slides) "puritans" of various religions, including Islam, who profess to have that. What I want to stress, though, is that this is not representative of the thinking of the majority of Muslims thinkers, just like it is not of the majority of any of the religions as far as I know. When you say "the leaders of the Shiites and Sunnis," that seems to imply that there is a "church" of sorts with recognized leaders who have authority to say what the meaning of the texts is, or if not that, that the majority of leading scholars are in agreement on how the texts are to be intreated and applied. There are some who claim that authority, but such claims are their own. Sunnism has no established hierarchy of interpretive authority. Even Shiism, with its recognized but informal hierarchy of scholars (ayatollahs are only one level) has many recognized scholars who disagree among themselves, even in Iran today. The variety of competing claims of what Islam means today is much greater than what we in the West usually hear. A very interesting book on this is "Reason, Freedom, and Democracy in Islam: the Essential Writings of Abdolkarim Soroush" (an Iranian philosopher who initially supported the 1979 Iranian Revolution but has since been highly critical of its development). In short, then, I do not mean to minimize the dangers posed by anyone or any group (outside of a liberal constitutional democracy) that claims to have exclusive authority to say what the law is (and there are quite obviously such individuals and groups within Islam today). But too many people believe that Islam consists only of such people, that it is a monolithic force of true believers who follow one set of beliefs or values as dictated by a few at the top. It is much more vibrant, diverse, and even hopeful than that. Mark Weltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994323710494898689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-80671811407938320242015-05-18T19:58:16.922-04:002015-05-18T19:58:16.922-04:00Mark: THANKS for your thoughtful and expert presen...Mark: THANKS for your thoughtful and expert presentation to our Philosophy Club. I hope some members of my Blog community download your fine Powerpoint charts and perhaps start a cross-discussion that may be of mutual benefit.<br /><br />I respect your superior education and experience in this area, and what I took as your main point that there are a variety of ways any set of ancient writings may be interpreted in more modern ages. <br /><br />Of course, when we compare interpretations of the 200-odd year old writings, in English, of the founders of the American Republic, that many of us regard as mightily inspired, but far from the verbatim WORD of a DEITY, with interpretations of 1000-2000 or more year old writings, in Arabic (or Greek, Latin, Hebrew or Aramaic) it seems to me that the gap may be unbridgeable.<br /><br />The Federalist Papers and other contemporary publications by the founders, as well as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, plus the Amendments, come from a time far more familiar to us that of the ancients. Even so, some recent interpretations appear to me to be absolutely topsy-turvey. Indeed, even some writings and laws passed during my lifetime, that include a phrase such as "without regard to race ..." are now used as justification for government programs based on total regard for race.<br /><br />Many of us are (IMHO rightly) concerned about any individual who thinks he or she has access to the verbatim WORD of some DEITY, particularly if that DEITY is thought to actually speak to him or her! That is why I worry so much about the current group of religious leaders and their "true believers". <br /><br />I enjoyed your presentation, but it seemed to me that you were, to some extent, minimizing the dangers posed by the leaders of the Shiites and Sunnis in general, and the Ayatolas of Iran, in particular.<br /><br />Ira GlicksteinIra Glicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10800080810596424897noreply@blogger.com