tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post8834877120074806017..comments2023-09-07T06:36:59.520-04:00Comments on The Virtual Philosophy Club: Toyota Runaway = "Creative Destruction"Ira Glicksteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10800080810596424897noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-61532890666796662272010-03-19T09:30:10.206-04:002010-03-19T09:30:10.206-04:00Well, I now feel (a bit) better about driving my P...Well, I now feel (a bit) better about driving my Prius. After reading the full <a href="http://media.signonsandiego.com/pdf/100318chp-prius-report.pdf" rel="nofollow">CHP officer's report</a> and this <a href="http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html" rel="nofollow">Forbes piece</a>, it is now pretty clear the "runaway" Prius in San Diego was most likely a ruse. The impounded Prius was under the control of the CHP and NHTSA from the time of the incident through testing and download of its computer data by Toyota technicians. That data confirms my theory of how the ruse may have been staged.<br /><br />The driver, Sikes, most likely sped up to 90+ then took his foot off the accelerator and braked for a while, then repeatedly accelerated and braked, etc.<br /><br />That would explain his average speed of only 65 to 75 MPH over the 20 minute period. It would also explain the CHP officer's report of overheated and worn brakes. Sikes was most likely only pretending when the CHP officer, observing through the right rear window of the Prius where he could not see Sikes feet, says he saw him apparently standing on the brakes.<br /><br />Oh, and the woman in NY whose "runaway" Prius slammed into a stone wall apparently mistakenly had her foot on the accelerator instead of the brakes, <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-03-19-toyota19_ST_N.htm" rel="nofollow">according to NHTSA</a> based on data downloaded from the computer on that car.<br /><br />BOTTOM LINE: I still do not trust Toyota because they withheld data and delayed fixing real problems (sticking accelerator pedals were real). Also because, other than the Prius, they did not implement brake override for years after they could have and should have done so.<br /><br />Ira GlicksteinIra Glicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10800080810596424897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-23031793511479045002010-03-15T23:42:43.642-04:002010-03-15T23:42:43.642-04:00Ira said: The same is true of a manual gas pedal -...Ira said: The same is true of a manual gas pedal - they could corrode and get stuck full-on as well - perhaps more likely than an electronic pedal. Were mechanical linkages and hydraulic control more reliable? I doubt it.<br /><br />Joel responds: Although you're right about failure of mechanical or hydraulics, I think they would fail gracefully. That doesn't mean that there won't be people who ignore the warning signs. When self service gas stations came into existence, there were a lot more burnt out engines, because women never checked oil or water levels. After awhile men also lost the habit of checking. Besides, there's a reason why they call them IDIOT lights.joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08770806025343971171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-42275826046806625262010-03-15T22:26:46.238-04:002010-03-15T22:26:46.238-04:00My wife and I used to drive cars with standard, ma...My wife and I used to drive cars with standard, manual-shift, transmissions, Joel. I felt I was being downgraded when we changed to automatic, and gave as an excuse that automatic cost more to manufacture and would more likely to go bad. In truth, I felt bad because I had worked to develop a skill that was now obsolete (like my ability to sweat solder copper pipes or fix TV sets!)<br /><br />Somewhat similarly, around twenty years ago we found a new car on the lot at a good price that had what we wanted, but it also happened to have automatic windows. I worried they would go bad. They didn't go bad and now I wonder how we got along without automatic windows all those years.<br /><br />I once installed a hand throttle on a car so I could warm it up in the winter without having to sit in the seat with my foot on the accelerator. Thinking back on it, that mechanism could have easily stuck full-on and I could have had a runaway car. <br /><br />The same is true of a manual gas pedal - they could corrode and get stuck full-on as well - perhaps more likely than an electronic pedal. Were mechanical linkages and hydraulic control more reliable? I doubt it.<br /><br />The good thing about built-in cruise control and other automatic features is that they can be relatively easily programmed to have brake override. I am angry that Toyota and other car companies have been so slow to include that feature in their electronic controlled cars. <br /><br />Another good feature of electronic control is the error codes that can be captured for analysis in the control computer storage memory. (A separate Event Data Recorder "black box" collects information for a few seconds before during and after an air bag deployment. This is not applicable to the runaway Toyota since there was no air bag deployment). <br /><br />Amazingly (but I guess not surprising ^) the "privacy" advocates are opposed to this "invasion" of their private lives. Give me a break!<br /><br />Toyota claims data from the runaway Prius indicates the driver was using the brakes and accelerator in an unusual way, possibly indicating he was a "copy cat" staging this incident.<br /><br />See <a href="http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/77852-sikes-accelerator-braking-data.html#post1086907" rel="nofollow">this</a> for more.<br /><br />Ira GlicksteinIra Glicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10800080810596424897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-33959364110599650822010-03-15T11:10:58.933-04:002010-03-15T11:10:58.933-04:00You have some good questions and hopefully Toyota ...You have some good questions and hopefully Toyota will provide some honest answers. Since every car I know has cruise control, it would seem that everything necessary is already present except for a few lines of code. A tap of the brake already shuts off the cruise control. The only situation that comes to mind where one might want the brake to override is when you're trying to rock out of snow or mud.<br /><br />I looked at fly-by-wire aviation. It seems that there are two situations that justify its use. One is jet fighters in which the planes are so unstable that an unaided pilot cannot maneuver safely. Another is very large passenger planes in which the existing hydraulics with all its control and redundancy became too cumbersome. Pilots and engineers still argue over the issues of computer override. In automobiles, there is little to be gained for the operator. Distances are short enough to permit efficient use of mechanical or hydraulic links. Manufacturing and assembly costs are much lower for drive-by-wire, but as we have seen recently, catastrophic failure rather than graceful failure may be the rule. Strangely there is a cultural cost that cannot be assessed. <br /><br />When I was young, I used to have to change the clutch slave cylinder on my Toyota every six months. Kids would change spark plugs, points and rotors on their old Chevys. The more ambitious could even replace an engine. We live in a world in which young people can operate technology,but don't understand it. it.joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08770806025343971171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-47056212028898522932010-03-13T21:41:48.061-05:002010-03-13T21:41:48.061-05:00See the update I made to the original Topic postin...See the update I made to the original Topic posting. It is possible the brake over-ride supposedly on all recent Prius cars did fail, as you speculate Joel, but I think it is more likely the driver in the incident described is a "copy cat" who purposely staged the runaway.<br /><br />I guess I am not as much of an "old fuddy duddy" as you. IMHO, I believe we are generally better off with computer-based solutions to failures in complex products, like modern autos. True, some of these computer-based systems and software were not designed and implemented and tested properly. However, once a problem with them is detected, and properly fixed, it should not re-occur. Depending on humans to read meters and react properly to sounds and feel is, IMHO, more prone to repeated error.<br /><br />As a driver of a 2004 Prius, I am somewhat relieved to hear that my car has two microprocesors and power will be cut to the wheels if the processors have different data or if both brakes and accelerator are active at the same time. I only wish all Toyotas and other cars had the same features. <br /><br />I also wish Toyota had been more open about the runaway problems and addressed them years ago. Their brand is badly tarnished. The "creative destruction" inherent in capitalism, together with news reports and Internet chatter, will cost Toyota much more grief and has been effective much more rapidly than government regulation, which has been totally ineffective thus far.<br /><br />Ira GlicksteinIra Glicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10800080810596424897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8429570072441023296.post-9348951726236802272010-03-12T10:52:04.495-05:002010-03-12T10:52:04.495-05:00The news this morning said that Toyota cannot figu...The news this morning said that Toyota cannot figure out how the scenario described in which the brake is applied and the accelerator is still active can happen. They say that the computer is wired such that a simultaneous signal from both cause the accelerator to be disconnected. <br /><br />In effect, they have said that they've used your software approach but it doesn't seem to work. To me that points to a programming error coupled with insufficient debugging or a pathological case that only shows up with the "right" combination of inputs. Being an old fuddy duddy and a mechanical engineer, I'm prejudiced toward the principle of design for"graceful failure." Before we had computers and fly-by-wire, when we thought there was a possibility for failure we tried to design so that there was inherent warning rather than catastrophic failure. Examples are brakes that screech as the pad wears out. Another would be gauges rather than idiot lights. Still another would be brake pedals that slowly go soft when there's air in the brake line. When we opt to take humans out of the loop and substitute a computer, we generate a whole new set of risks. I don't think we can say that aerospace is guilt free. I seem to recall at least one Airbus crash that was attributed to a computer over-ride of the pilot upon landing. -Joeljoelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08770806025343971171noreply@blogger.com